turtledovefandomcom-20200216-history
Talk:Jamaica
According to wikipedia, the British seized the island in 1655 from Spain. Probably explains why the map of North America has it drawn but unlabled. I don't blame HT or Dreyfuss for an inconsistency since there is no mention of the island in the book itself. ML4E 03:35, 1 February 2008 (UTC) Save the Tilde Is there a way to type the Spanish letter N-tilde? As in Espana (pronounced eh SPAH nyah). EoGuy99 15:34, 25 December 2008 (UTC) :Is there a way? No doubt. I've often wondered that myself. Alas I've never bothered trying to figure it out. Turtle Fan 15:44, 25 December 2008 (UTC) Lower case n-tilde is ALT 164. ñ There is also an upper case N-tilde but it's not used in very many words. EoGuy99 16:26, 25 December 2008 (UTC) Jamaica in Worldwar How could Jamaica retain its independence in Worldwar after the Peace of Cairo in 1944? It was still a British colony. In OTL, Jamaica got its independence in 1962. Should the article say that Jamaica remained a British colony or did it really become an independent country 18 years earlier than in OTL? -- 20:31, March 25, 2015 (UTC)Jacob Chesley the Alternate Historian :Hmm. Seems we have no useful information on these two countries. Perhaps we'd do well to remove their Worldwar sections altogether. Turtle Fan (talk) 02:23, March 26, 2015 (UTC) ::I went ahead and revised after reviewing SC. It's frustrating they have the same blank "color" as Cuba and Hispanola (and Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, etc., for that matter) on the map, suggesting that they aren't physically controlled by the Race or any of the main human players, which is probably why the article called them independent. But a re-read of the text makes it clear that they don't have any embassies in the U.S., which casts some doubt as to their independent status. I mean, not every country is required to have an embassy in every country, but given the close proximity between the US and the Caribbean, it seems like it would be a good move. ::They could still be British I suppose. The British characters lament the fact that most (but, implicitly, not all) of the empire is gone--certainly the colonies in Africa and Asia would qualify as "most", meaning Britain could still control the Caribbean. ::If it weren't for the damn map, I'd agree with TF's suggestion of removing the WW section altogether. However, since they do show up on the map, I think the issue should be addressed, and I think the literary comment is the least horrible way of doing it. TR (talk) 17:55, March 26, 2015 (UTC) The Two Georges I don't see any reference to Jamaica being Spanish in T2G or called anything other than Jamaica. The map has the island unlabeled. Did a vandal add the T2G entry?JonathanMarkoff (talk) 22:15, February 8, 2016 (UTC) :I appear to have created this article on 1 Feb., 2008 with only T2G sub-scection and with Jamaica being part of the Franco-Spanish empire. I don't recall why but probably because of something to do with the map. I'll take a look and get back to you. ML4E (talk) 21:47, February 9, 2016 (UTC) :Okay, I took a look at the map of North America in T2G and have been reminded of my reasoning. It has a dashed line separating the Bahamas on the north side from Cuba and Hispaniola to the south of it and extending east to the north of Puerto Rico. The line left me with the impression everything to the south of it is part of Nueva España including Jamaica south of Cuba and down to and including the mainland. The first comment I made at the top of the Talk Page is referencing this point and the fact that the island is unlabeled on the map. ML4E (talk) 19:42, February 10, 2016 (UTC) ::I find it highly unlikely that Jamaica would have been Hispancised in T2G, given how Anglo it was by 1765. A good idea might be to change the article to something like "Jamaica was one of the British Empire's few toe holds in the Holy Alliance-dominated Caribbean." And add a lit comm something like "The frontispiece map does not make clear which empire controls Jamaica. The island was thoroughly Anglicised by the British before the POD, and it is difficult to imagine this being altered by any subsequent in-universe event."JonathanMarkoff (talk) 19:54, February 10, 2016 (UTC) :::The latter, I think, would be undue editorialization. Turtle Fan (talk) 02:30, February 11, 2016 (UTC) :I know it seems unreasonable, hence my comment back in the day at the start of the Talk Page. I keep looking at the map though and think if Turtledove wanted to be clear, then he could have had the island labeled and said to Br. as he did with British Guiana. Instead it is left blank. The only scenario I can think of is that during the Mexican War equivalent, the Holy Alliance seized the isolated island and the peace treaty gave it up for California et al. ML4E (talk) 16:04, February 12, 2016 (UTC) :See Belize for another, explicit example of changed holdings. ML4E (talk) 17:49, February 12, 2016 (UTC) ::On Saturday night, I looked in the Two Georges book that my dad got me for Christmas last year. Jamaica is unlabeled on the map. However, is it possible that it might have been absorbed into Cuba if Jamaica is part of the Holy Alliance or not? Given Jamaica's small size and relative closeness to Cuba, I think it is a possibility. What do you guys think? -- 12:55, August 23, 2016 (UTC)Jacob Chesley the Alternate Historian :::Is it possible? Sure, why not. Should we rewrite the article to reflect that? No. TR (talk) 14:19, August 23, 2016 (UTC) :::Its possible but its more likely that it is a separate province within the Viceroyalty of New Spain. While relatively small, it is about the same size as Massachusetts so an island that size doesn't need to be governed as part of another island. Instead its governed as a separate province within a larger political entity. ML4E (talk) 15:59, August 23, 2016 (UTC) ::::I guess both are possible. I mean, we've guested that Prince Edward Island is part of New Scotland and that the Bahamas may be part of Florida. Unlabeled areas on the map in the book are a mystery sometimes, aren't they? -- 12:35, August 24, 2016 (UTC)Jacob Chesley the Alternate Historian :::::They are indeed tantalizing.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 18:12, August 24, 2016 (UTC)